1
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- Synced & corrected by<font color="#E83286"> MementMori </font>-
-- <font color="#138CE9">www.addic7ed.com</font> --

2
00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:39,531
He never said a word.

3
00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:45,456
All kids have secrets. But this?

4
00:02:48,043 --> 00:02:49,633
He tried to tell us, Bill.

5
00:02:51,505 --> 00:02:53,795
He kept saying, "I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, Mommy."

6
00:02:54,424 --> 00:02:56,584
- I don't remember that.
- When he wet the bed.

7
00:02:57,302 --> 00:02:58,972
He hasn't done that in years.

8
00:02:59,346 --> 00:03:02,096
Oh, God. I... I thought
he was ashamed, but...

9
00:03:04,351 --> 00:03:05,941
Was he trying to tell us, Bill?

10
00:03:06,269 --> 00:03:07,689
I don't know, Nance.

11
00:03:08,063 --> 00:03:10,023
What did he think happened
to that little boy?

12
00:03:10,607 --> 00:03:12,067
They had to know he wasn't breathing.

13
00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,950
He wasn't a part of any
of... of that. He...

14
00:03:17,698 --> 00:03:20,328
- He watched.
- He knew enough to put him on a cross.

15
00:03:22,828 --> 00:03:24,508
He thought it would
bring him back to life.

16
00:03:26,957 --> 00:03:28,707
I never liked that Martin boy.

17
00:03:29,668 --> 00:03:31,748
I told you, we should never
have let him play with him.

18
00:03:31,837 --> 00:03:32,837
He's too rough.

19
00:03:33,338 --> 00:03:34,878
What if he'd done that to Brian instead?

20
00:03:34,965 --> 00:03:38,385
We both thought it was good
seeing Bri finally have friends.

21
00:03:40,762 --> 00:03:42,392
Are they gonna take him from us?

22
00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:43,682
I won't let that happen.

23
00:03:44,725 --> 00:03:45,765
He has a good home.

24
00:03:58,447 --> 00:03:59,447
Hello?

25
00:04:02,409 --> 00:04:05,329
Uh, I'm dealing with a family
matter. Can you tell him... ?

26
00:04:07,122 --> 00:04:09,122
Okay.

27
00:04:10,751 --> 00:04:12,091
Okay, I'll be right in.

28
00:04:15,255 --> 00:04:17,165
- Now?
- Gunn wants to see me.

29
00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:19,376
I'll tell him I'm taking the week off.

30
00:04:19,468 --> 00:04:20,968
- A week?
- Nance.

31
00:04:21,428 --> 00:04:23,848
I just meant we need to
get a handle on things.

32
00:04:24,723 --> 00:04:26,103
Find out what's next.

33
00:04:44,075 --> 00:04:45,075
What happened?

34
00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:52,420
I'm sorry, sir.

35
00:04:52,501 --> 00:04:54,001
I know I should be in Atlanta.

36
00:04:54,544 --> 00:04:56,674
- I got a phone call...
- Which is more than I got.

37
00:04:57,798 --> 00:04:58,798
Apologies.

38
00:04:59,216 --> 00:05:01,046
- I should have called.
- At the very least.

39
00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:03,144
The city has been begging
for federal help for weeks,

40
00:05:03,220 --> 00:05:04,890
and we are kicked out
in less than 24 hours.

41
00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:06,351
Yes, you should have called.

42
00:05:06,431 --> 00:05:09,141
I had to hear it from the
Atlanta office this morning.

43
00:05:09,351 --> 00:05:11,351
Apparently, Holden's introduction
wasn't well received

44
00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:12,846
by the safety commissioner?

45
00:05:12,938 --> 00:05:15,108
- Have you spoken with Holden?
- No.

46
00:05:15,190 --> 00:05:17,190
I'm asking you, as the
leader of your department,

47
00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:19,605
what did Holden say that
so offended the city?

48
00:05:19,694 --> 00:05:22,074
The commissioner's excuse that
this wasn't really a kidnapping

49
00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:23,865
was a convenient means to an end.

50
00:05:24,407 --> 00:05:27,287
- What did Holden say?
- Honestly, sir, nothing out of line.

51
00:05:27,661 --> 00:05:29,251
He gave the commissioner an overview:

52
00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:31,039
that we look for connections.

53
00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:34,172
He did explain he felt there could
be a single, black predator.

54
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,630
It may have been more
how he said it, sir,

55
00:05:36,711 --> 00:05:37,871
- than what he said.
- How so?

56
00:05:39,047 --> 00:05:42,377
He might have gone into more specifics
than we can support right now.

57
00:05:42,509 --> 00:05:44,589
The impression from the Atlanta SAC

58
00:05:44,678 --> 00:05:45,848
is that Holden was trying

59
00:05:45,929 --> 00:05:47,389
to steer the investigation

60
00:05:47,472 --> 00:05:49,982
into "avenues the city doesn't
want to explore right now,

61
00:05:50,058 --> 00:05:52,728
- at least not publicly."
- Sounds like politics, frankly.

62
00:05:52,811 --> 00:05:54,481
Name me a major city where
there are no politics.

63
00:05:54,563 --> 00:05:56,823
We have to be smarter than this.

64
00:05:56,898 --> 00:05:59,528
If you sense that Holden is
wading into political waters,

65
00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:00,859
it's your job to stop him...

66
00:06:01,653 --> 00:06:04,573
or at least give me the opportunity
to anticipate the fallout.

67
00:06:05,532 --> 00:06:07,372
Yes, sir. You're right.

68
00:06:08,201 --> 00:06:09,581
I should've read the room better.

69
00:06:09,661 --> 00:06:11,911
We want them to understand
why they need us,

70
00:06:11,997 --> 00:06:13,787
not why they should be wary of us.

71
00:06:13,874 --> 00:06:14,924
I understand, sir.

72
00:06:15,125 --> 00:06:17,085
This cannot happen again, Bill.

73
00:06:25,927 --> 00:06:28,887
- You couldn't have called me?
- Bill, it all happened so fast.

74
00:06:28,972 --> 00:06:30,722
Well, someone had enough
time to call Gunn.

75
00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:33,516
Barney told me there was
nothing we could have done.

76
00:06:33,602 --> 00:06:34,642
It's all politics.

77
00:06:34,728 --> 00:06:35,740
I'm happy to talk to Ted.

78
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,188
No. You're not talking to anyone.

79
00:06:37,272 --> 00:06:38,692
And it wasn't all politics, Holden,

80
00:06:38,773 --> 00:06:41,783
until you started selling
your unsupported conclusions.

81
00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:43,780
You agreed the perpetrator
is likely black.

82
00:06:44,362 --> 00:06:47,242
Can you see, just for a moment,
how it might be perceived

83
00:06:47,324 --> 00:06:50,294
when you present a profile without
ever having been to a crime scene?

84
00:06:50,869 --> 00:06:53,789
Next time, shut up until
we've done some groundwork!

85
00:07:19,022 --> 00:07:20,982
Sorry you had to hear that.

86
00:07:22,609 --> 00:07:23,649
You look terrible.

87
00:07:24,277 --> 00:07:25,277
Thanks.

88
00:07:26,363 --> 00:07:29,680
So, I take it the Atlanta
trip has been... curtailed?

89
00:07:31,868 --> 00:07:33,498
I can point the finger at Holden,

90
00:07:33,578 --> 00:07:36,618
but I'm supposed to be watching him.
Supposed to be his blinders.

91
00:07:37,082 --> 00:07:39,542
I let him get swept up in the
moment, impressing people,

92
00:07:39,620 --> 00:07:40,970
then he must've stepped on a land mine.

93
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,580
It's a full-time job.

94
00:07:43,922 --> 00:07:44,922
Yeah.

95
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,140
Look, I'll get better at it, but I
need to take a little time today.

96
00:07:49,761 --> 00:07:51,511
- Family thing.
- Everything okay?

97
00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:54,846
Yeah. You know, just...
I'll be back in tomorrow.

98
00:07:54,933 --> 00:07:55,933
Okay.

99
00:07:59,980 --> 00:08:03,020
Um... Gregg and I did Henley.

100
00:08:03,350 --> 00:08:04,400
Gregg?

101
00:08:04,420 --> 00:08:06,149
Yeah. We thought you guys
would be gone for weeks,

102
00:08:06,236 --> 00:08:08,146
and we didn't want the
interviews to lag.

103
00:08:08,238 --> 00:08:09,260
How'd he do?

104
00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:11,489
A little... hesitant.

105
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,900
He shit the rug, didn't he?

106
00:08:13,968 --> 00:08:14,999
It was a team effort.

107
00:08:15,078 --> 00:08:16,788
The transcripts should
be done by tomorrow.

108
00:08:16,871 --> 00:08:19,711
Look forward to it.

109
00:08:31,136 --> 00:08:32,296
We're gonna be late.

110
00:08:32,387 --> 00:08:33,387
We'll be fine.

111
00:08:33,471 --> 00:08:34,811
It starts in two minutes.

112
00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:36,980
So we'll miss the trailers.

113
00:08:37,892 --> 00:08:39,942
By the time we get our
drinks and our seats,

114
00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:41,690
we'll definitely miss something.

115
00:08:42,647 --> 00:08:43,897
This feels like a big deal.

116
00:08:43,982 --> 00:08:45,402
You're passing it.

117
00:08:46,067 --> 00:08:48,317
It's fine. I'm gonna get this spot.

118
00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:51,359
Look, it's just that I'm
one of those people

119
00:08:51,448 --> 00:08:52,778
who needs to see the whole thing.

120
00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:55,320
Like, I like to get my popcorn, my seat.

121
00:08:55,350 --> 00:08:57,120
I like to watch the trailers.

122
00:08:58,038 --> 00:08:59,368
A lot of people feel this way.

123
00:08:59,456 --> 00:09:01,696
If you say so.

124
00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:06,900
But it's gonna take me
at least another minute

125
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,590
to pull into this space.

126
00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:12,183
Because I am a really...

127
00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:14,720
slow... parker.

128
00:09:15,597 --> 00:09:17,717
We are definitely...

129
00:09:18,183 --> 00:09:21,063
going to miss... something.

130
00:09:27,442 --> 00:09:30,822
You know, I have an
unopened, very mediocre,

131
00:09:30,904 --> 00:09:33,624
probably spoiled, bottle of
Chablis at my apartment.

132
00:09:36,201 --> 00:09:37,201
Really?

133
00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:39,196
It has a screw top.

134
00:09:41,372 --> 00:09:43,082
I mean, how can I say no to that?

135
00:10:01,434 --> 00:10:02,434
Ah.

136
00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:07,856
What?

137
00:10:08,483 --> 00:10:10,443
Nothing.

138
00:10:15,949 --> 00:10:16,949
Do you have that wine?

139
00:10:18,868 --> 00:10:22,248
I thought for sure I had
unsold you on that.

140
00:10:24,749 --> 00:10:25,879
Hmm.

141
00:10:55,238 --> 00:10:58,028
I didn't picture you living
in a place like this.

142
00:10:59,826 --> 00:11:00,826
Small?

143
00:11:01,494 --> 00:11:02,504
Sparse.

144
00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:05,116
Your life seems very abundant.

145
00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:08,129
Well, one's expansiveness of spirit

146
00:11:08,209 --> 00:11:10,999
needn't be reflected by one's
personal surroundings.

147
00:11:11,838 --> 00:11:12,838
Who said that?

148
00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:16,046
Me, just now. Didn't you
recognize my voice?

149
00:11:20,305 --> 00:11:21,385
He's adorable.

150
00:11:22,223 --> 00:11:25,023
Yeah. He's not bad.

151
00:11:26,561 --> 00:11:27,691
How often do you see him?

152
00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:31,606
I'm seeing him this weekend.
Gonna take him to a Dukes game.

153
00:11:32,070 --> 00:11:33,147
Dukes?

154
00:11:33,234 --> 00:11:34,654
Uh, Double-A baseball.

155
00:11:36,738 --> 00:11:37,738
You miss him?

156
00:11:38,489 --> 00:11:39,489
Of course.

157
00:11:41,075 --> 00:11:44,155
It's just the idea of shaping
another life that terrifies me.

158
00:11:44,245 --> 00:11:45,825
I can barely manage my own.

159
00:11:47,498 --> 00:11:49,538
I still got milk crates for shelves.

160
00:11:49,626 --> 00:11:51,336
I've got real shelves, and I
don't think that shelves equate

161
00:11:51,419 --> 00:11:52,919
to any higher understanding.

162
00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:56,166
What you've done takes courage.

163
00:11:58,343 --> 00:12:00,763
I'm happy that you're
leading an authentic life.

164
00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:03,850
I'm happy to be here.

165
00:12:04,766 --> 00:12:05,806
With you.

166
00:12:13,566 --> 00:12:14,726
Me too.

167
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:29,920
I like baseball.

168
00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,291
- You like baseball?
- Uh-huh.

169
00:12:33,544 --> 00:12:36,054
I mean, I'm sure I would
if I ever went to a game.

170
00:12:41,594 --> 00:12:44,724
Wendy, I don't introduce my
son to people I'm dating.

171
00:12:47,267 --> 00:12:48,847
Oh, no. Of course.

172
00:12:49,227 --> 00:12:50,347
It's not...

173
00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,146
No, it's... it's fine.

174
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:54,440
I... I'm... I'm sorry. I shouldn't have.

175
00:12:54,524 --> 00:12:55,904
- This is not about you.
- No.

176
00:12:55,984 --> 00:12:57,194
Not specifically you. It's just...

177
00:12:57,270 --> 00:12:58,940
You... You shouldn't introduce your son

178
00:12:58,980 --> 00:13:00,320
to people that you don't know.

179
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,080
You know, I interview the by-products

180
00:13:02,110 --> 00:13:04,076
of promiscuous mothers, and it's...

181
00:13:04,158 --> 00:13:05,618
I'm not saying that you're...

182
00:13:13,042 --> 00:13:15,422
Can we just go back to
just a few minutes ago,

183
00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:17,513
after I had the best sex of my life,

184
00:13:17,588 --> 00:13:20,008
and before I invited
myself to Little League?

185
00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:23,430
It's "minor league."

186
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,019
And... he would really like you.

187
00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:31,266
He's just... He's been through
a lot, and I don't...

188
00:13:31,352 --> 00:13:35,022
I don't want to freak him out. You
know, not until it's... something.

189
00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:41,898
Uh, was that really the
best sex of your life?

190
00:13:47,702 --> 00:13:49,832
Nice save, the dyke mentor story.

191
00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:52,169
And just in time.

192
00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:53,700
I had to come up with something

193
00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:55,383
that would make him feel accepted.

194
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,640
- Well, it worked.
- But then he adamantly denied

195
00:13:57,680 --> 00:13:58,690
being homosexual.

196
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,280
He was actually more
defensive about that

197
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,046
than he was about being called a sadist.

198
00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:04,303
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

199
00:14:04,385 --> 00:14:06,925
He protests a lot of things.
Rape, torture, murder.

200
00:14:07,013 --> 00:14:10,143
By saying that he didn't engage
in those aspects of the crimes,

201
00:14:10,224 --> 00:14:12,394
he characterizes himself
as a nonparticipant.

202
00:14:13,436 --> 00:14:16,146
It's amazing how he's
able to compartmentalize.

203
00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:19,653
We have to consider, Henley was a kid.

204
00:14:20,109 --> 00:14:23,399
He might view his participation as
having been beyond his control.

205
00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:26,410
He knew exactly what was gonna
happen to the victims he procured.

206
00:14:26,491 --> 00:14:28,791
And he made a conscious
decision not to intervene.

207
00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:31,368
So whether he participated
or not, he's culpable.

208
00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:33,924
I think there's a distinction
between procurement,

209
00:14:33,998 --> 00:14:36,038
as fucked up as it is, and murder.

210
00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:37,915
Distinction, yes, but not absolution.

211
00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:41,092
I'm not excusing him. I'm just asking,

212
00:14:41,172 --> 00:14:44,092
can a teenager be held responsible
for the actions of an adult?

213
00:14:44,675 --> 00:14:46,005
He was trying to please Corll.

214
00:14:46,094 --> 00:14:47,264
He was probably afraid of him.

215
00:14:47,345 --> 00:14:49,805
Actually, he seemed to be
more in thrall of Corll

216
00:14:49,889 --> 00:14:52,139
- than he was afraid of him.
- So is that why he stuck around?

217
00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:53,635
He got off on watching Corll kill?

218
00:14:53,726 --> 00:14:55,306
How do we know Henley got off on it?

219
00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:58,313
"When I did something, whatever
it was, I enjoyed it."

220
00:14:58,981 --> 00:15:01,531
Bill, he assisted in killing 20 boys.

221
00:15:01,609 --> 00:15:03,439
What could possibly be
defensible in that?

222
00:15:03,528 --> 00:15:05,528
All I'm saying is, he was 14.

223
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:08,408
Can we really lump him in
with Kemper and Brudos?

224
00:15:09,242 --> 00:15:12,542
Without Corll's influence, would
he have ever progressed to murder?

225
00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:13,660
There's no way to know.

226
00:15:13,704 --> 00:15:16,124
But incredibly, he
acknowledges a deep connection

227
00:15:16,207 --> 00:15:18,707
with a man that he saw
do horrific things.

228
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,210
Who even threatened to kill him.

229
00:15:20,294 --> 00:15:22,450
Maybe his need for
acceptance was more powerful

230
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,634
than any moral boundary.

231
00:15:23,714 --> 00:15:25,344
And Corll exploited that.

232
00:15:28,136 --> 00:15:31,176
I've been thinking that we
should talk about our tactics.

233
00:15:33,474 --> 00:15:35,774
You know, we wouldn't have gotten
any of this if I hadn't...

234
00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:38,312
- Improvised?
- Maybe made some shit up?

235
00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:39,813
Touché.

236
00:15:40,231 --> 00:15:41,981
If we're going to teach
an interview technique,

237
00:15:42,066 --> 00:15:43,936
it can't be strictly
following the instrument.

238
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,160
So far, the only thing that's
worked is to talk about them.

239
00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:52,784
Sir.

240
00:15:56,706 --> 00:15:57,706
Henley?

241
00:15:59,083 --> 00:16:01,793
Quite a maneuver, Dr. Carr.
I thought I was reading Holden.

242
00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:04,957
Gregg, would you give
us a minute, please?

243
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,440
Assistant Director Wyman is
coming down in a few weeks.

244
00:16:17,935 --> 00:16:19,933
I'm having a small gathering at my home,

245
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,355
and I'd like you all to come.

246
00:16:21,439 --> 00:16:23,569
Of course. Be happy to, Ted.

247
00:16:23,649 --> 00:16:26,149
Wyman could be a
powerful advocate in DC.

248
00:16:26,235 --> 00:16:28,235
I'd like him to hear our
narrative directly from you,

249
00:16:28,321 --> 00:16:29,491
the people who created this.

250
00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:30,680
Yes, sir.

251
00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:32,370
So, it's a working party.

252
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,330
Yes, but I want you to have a
good time, Bill. Bring Nancy.

253
00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,960
Holden, Dr. Carr, please
feel free to bring a guest.

254
00:16:40,875 --> 00:16:42,665
Thank you, sir. We'll plan on it.

255
00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:45,249
Oh, uh, one more thing.

256
00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:48,131
I got you Manson.

257
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,510
- When?
- Three weeks.

258
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:58,680
Holy shit.

259
00:16:58,768 --> 00:17:00,938
We have to think carefully
about how we approach this.

260
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:02,150
Did he say Manson?

261
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:03,480
We approach it like we
do every interview.

262
00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:05,324
No. This is the first
time that we'll sit down

263
00:17:05,399 --> 00:17:07,859
with a subject who hasn't
actually taken a life.

264
00:17:07,944 --> 00:17:09,114
Now what would be valuable

265
00:17:09,195 --> 00:17:11,655
would be to look at him
from the team perspective.

266
00:17:12,198 --> 00:17:14,278
Manson was the undisputed
leader of his Family.

267
00:17:14,367 --> 00:17:15,737
Then that's our approach.

268
00:17:17,495 --> 00:17:19,000
The ME's report corroborates

269
00:17:19,030 --> 00:17:20,615
the testimony of the other children:

270
00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:23,996
that Brian did not directly
engage in the activities

271
00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:26,665
that led to the death of the victim.

272
00:17:27,046 --> 00:17:30,166
However, he was present
and, as he has admitted,

273
00:17:30,258 --> 00:17:32,758
he was the one who suggested
placing the victim on the cross.

274
00:17:32,843 --> 00:17:35,603
He thought it would bring
Daniel back to life...

275
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,680
Mrs. Tench, a child has been
forever lost to his family.

276
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:42,230
Brian seemingly acted without
malice, and because of his age,

277
00:17:42,311 --> 00:17:45,111
I'm choosing not to pursue
legal action against him.

278
00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:47,441
But the State cannot ignore

279
00:17:47,525 --> 00:17:49,985
that he had ample
opportunity to go for help

280
00:17:50,069 --> 00:17:52,909
or to speak with you, his
parents, after the fact.

281
00:17:53,239 --> 00:17:54,369
He chose not to.

282
00:17:54,448 --> 00:17:56,828
Either he was evading detection,

283
00:17:56,909 --> 00:17:58,869
or he has no concept of right and wrong.

284
00:17:59,370 --> 00:18:02,830
The State is obligated to try
to understand his motives

285
00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:05,875
to ensure he is not a danger
to himself or the community.

286
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,050
- A danger?
- I am transferring him

287
00:18:08,129 --> 00:18:10,719
to the Department of Health and
Human Services for evaluation.

288
00:18:10,798 --> 00:18:12,628
Will we be able to keep him at home?

289
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:13,760
Yes.

290
00:18:13,801 --> 00:18:17,311
You have been assigned a caseworker
and a mental health professional.

291
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,890
The court will render decisions
based solely on their evaluations.

292
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:25,190
Your compliance in this
process is mandatory

293
00:18:25,271 --> 00:18:28,361
and will be critical in
determining Brian's future.

294
00:18:29,859 --> 00:18:32,359
Social workers are underpaid
and overeducated.

295
00:18:32,445 --> 00:18:35,735
Don't try and sit this person down
and explain your way out of this.

296
00:18:35,948 --> 00:18:37,778
It won't go over well with them.

297
00:18:38,159 --> 00:18:40,869
No matter what hoops they present,
it's best to jump through.

298
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:42,280
I thought once they found out

299
00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:44,182
Brian was telling the
truth, this would be over.

300
00:18:44,582 --> 00:18:46,292
We get to keep him at home, Nance.

301
00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:49,172
To be poked and prodded by strangers.

302
00:18:49,253 --> 00:18:51,803
- A social worker?
- We don't have a choice.

303
00:18:51,881 --> 00:18:53,511
He didn't do anything.

304
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,280
Thanks, Art.

305
00:18:57,300 --> 00:18:58,512
- I appreciate everything...
- It's all right, Bill.

306
00:18:58,596 --> 00:18:59,966
I've got kids myself.

307
00:19:00,890 --> 00:19:01,890
Take care.

308
00:19:08,272 --> 00:19:10,192
Why didn't you say something in there?

309
00:19:11,233 --> 00:19:14,033
- You won't defend your own child?
- It's not a courtroom, honey.

310
00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,031
Art's right, we have to
go through the process.

311
00:19:19,033 --> 00:19:21,993
And maybe it's not a bad idea
for Brian to talk to someone.

312
00:19:22,578 --> 00:19:23,618
He's not defective.

313
00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:25,710
He's not a criminal.

314
00:19:26,957 --> 00:19:28,167
I know that, Nance.

315
00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:30,918
He's coming home with us.

316
00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:33,337
Today was a good day.

317
00:19:37,468 --> 00:19:39,888
♪ Cease to exist ♪

318
00:19:41,389 --> 00:19:45,349
♪ Just come and say you love me ♪

319
00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:52,322
♪ Give up your world ♪

320
00:19:53,859 --> 00:20:00,069
♪ Come on, you can be ♪

321
00:20:00,157 --> 00:20:02,237
♪ I'm your kind ♪

322
00:20:02,451 --> 00:20:04,751
♪ Oh, your kind, and I can... ♪

323
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:06,830
Seriously?

324
00:20:06,914 --> 00:20:07,990
He's not bad.

325
00:20:08,082 --> 00:20:09,212
Just tough to promote?

326
00:20:10,418 --> 00:20:11,838
You're down the rabbit hole.

327
00:20:13,587 --> 00:20:15,417
Did I miss anything that matters?

328
00:20:15,506 --> 00:20:17,966
No. We were just about to
start talking objectives.

329
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:19,720
Wendy is absolutely right.

330
00:20:19,802 --> 00:20:21,802
- Uh-huh.
- We're not asking Manson about killing.

331
00:20:21,887 --> 00:20:23,757
What we need to find out
is how a diminutive,

332
00:20:23,848 --> 00:20:25,768
uneducated ex-con

333
00:20:25,850 --> 00:20:27,600
convinced a group of
middle-class teenagers

334
00:20:27,685 --> 00:20:29,895
to brutally murder seven strangers.

335
00:20:31,564 --> 00:20:32,574
The killers:

336
00:20:33,357 --> 00:20:35,027
Susan Atkins, 19.

337
00:20:35,109 --> 00:20:36,439
Manson called her "Sadie."

338
00:20:37,153 --> 00:20:38,533
Church choir member.

339
00:20:38,612 --> 00:20:40,470
Linda Kasabian, 20.

340
00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:41,500
Good student.

341
00:20:41,532 --> 00:20:44,492
Described as a "starry-eyed
romantic" by her friends.

342
00:20:45,161 --> 00:20:47,001
Patricia Krenwinkel, 22.

343
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,499
Studied catechism.
Considered becoming a nun.

344
00:20:50,166 --> 00:20:52,456
Mary Brunner, 26.

345
00:20:53,335 --> 00:20:54,335
Librarian.

346
00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:57,505
And Tex Watson, 24.

347
00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:01,434
Honors student, school paper
editor, lettered athlete.

348
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:03,010
Looks like a high school yearbook.

349
00:21:03,095 --> 00:21:05,505
All grew up in average homes,
had high school educations,

350
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:06,530
some had college.

351
00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:10,354
Then all became runaways and somehow
washed up in Manson's Family.

352
00:21:10,853 --> 00:21:13,523
With the exception of Brunner,
the very first Family member,

353
00:21:13,606 --> 00:21:16,776
their transformation to murderers
took less than two years.

354
00:21:16,859 --> 00:21:19,295
Mary Brunner wasn't involved
in the Tate/LaBianca murders.

355
00:21:19,695 --> 00:21:23,445
That's correct. She was
arrested with Bobby Beausoleil

356
00:21:23,532 --> 00:21:26,202
just two days before Tate/LaBianca.

357
00:21:26,911 --> 00:21:29,411
The pair killed a music
producer over a bad drug deal,

358
00:21:29,497 --> 00:21:31,457
but what's really of
interest is the scene.

359
00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:34,570
Brunner and Beausoleil
tried to pin their murder

360
00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:35,600
on the Black Panthers

361
00:21:35,628 --> 00:21:39,968
by writing "political piggy" on
the wall in the victim's blood.

362
00:21:42,927 --> 00:21:44,347
Now here's the LaBianca scene.

363
00:21:45,262 --> 00:21:46,262
"Death to pigs."

364
00:21:47,807 --> 00:21:49,887
And the scene at Cielo Drive...

365
00:21:50,518 --> 00:21:52,898
"Pig" in Sharon Tate's blood.

366
00:21:53,729 --> 00:21:54,939
Helter Skelter.

367
00:21:55,022 --> 00:21:56,572
It was Manson's theme.

368
00:21:57,107 --> 00:21:58,317
The prosecution's case

369
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,450
rested on his desire to
incite a race war as motive

370
00:22:01,529 --> 00:22:03,239
and his control over
the Family as means.

371
00:22:03,322 --> 00:22:04,702
Ever heard of Krishna Venta?

372
00:22:05,241 --> 00:22:07,741
- No.
- Ex-con who declared himself a messiah.

373
00:22:08,202 --> 00:22:09,622
He founded his own church,

374
00:22:09,703 --> 00:22:11,873
preaching society was
corrupt and doomed.

375
00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:14,730
He said there was a race war coming.

376
00:22:15,751 --> 00:22:17,751
Krishna said he knew a
secret place in the desert

377
00:22:17,837 --> 00:22:19,837
where he and his flock
could wait it all out.

378
00:22:19,922 --> 00:22:21,672
Then, when the war was over,

379
00:22:22,508 --> 00:22:24,838
they'd emerge and create
a new civilization.

380
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,280
That's right out of Manson's playbook.

381
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:27,520
Krishna's playbook.

382
00:22:28,973 --> 00:22:30,983
Manson stayed at his church in '68.

383
00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:34,247
He said, "It's like the spirit
of everything brought me there."

384
00:22:34,854 --> 00:22:37,194
Later, he espoused exactly
the same doctrine,

385
00:22:37,273 --> 00:22:38,653
calling it "Helter Skelter."

386
00:22:38,732 --> 00:22:40,992
Helter Skelter wasn't
even Manson's idea?

387
00:22:41,068 --> 00:22:42,278
As borrowed as the name.

388
00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:43,611
He's a fraud.

389
00:22:43,696 --> 00:22:45,446
Still, the question remains,

390
00:22:45,531 --> 00:22:47,071
how does a guy like that...

391
00:22:48,158 --> 00:22:49,448
get kids like that...

392
00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:52,620
to do that?

393
00:23:04,258 --> 00:23:07,758
Have you noticed any changes in
his behavior, self-soothing?

394
00:23:08,262 --> 00:23:09,262
Not at all.

395
00:23:27,031 --> 00:23:29,201
- Do you read to him, Mrs. Tench?
- Mm-hmm.

396
00:23:30,075 --> 00:23:31,865
He likes Clifford the Big Red Dog.

397
00:23:35,623 --> 00:23:37,003
Sports, Mr. Tench?

398
00:23:37,625 --> 00:23:38,705
He rides his bike.

399
00:23:39,209 --> 00:23:42,129
- Almost off training wheels.
- But no team sports.

400
00:23:42,588 --> 00:23:43,588
No.

401
00:23:57,645 --> 00:23:59,395
What does he do when he's upset?

402
00:23:59,939 --> 00:24:01,479
He's not a big talker, but...

403
00:24:01,565 --> 00:24:04,145
he always comes to us
if he needs anything.

404
00:24:12,701 --> 00:24:14,371
And he attends the public school?

405
00:24:14,453 --> 00:24:15,453
Yes.

406
00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:18,996
Which has no special
education department?

407
00:24:19,083 --> 00:24:20,503
- No.
- No, we've never felt

408
00:24:20,584 --> 00:24:22,094
he needed that kind of...

409
00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:23,419
Brian's just shy.

410
00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:26,005
I see.

411
00:24:29,635 --> 00:24:30,965
How do you handle bad behavior?

412
00:24:31,637 --> 00:24:33,007
Nothing extraordinary.

413
00:24:33,097 --> 00:24:34,967
Sent to his room, the usual thing.

414
00:24:40,145 --> 00:24:41,145
Corporal punishment?

415
00:24:41,522 --> 00:24:42,562
- Never.
- No.

416
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,830
- Do you have a weapon in the house?
- I keep my gun in my office.

417
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:01,916
And you keep it locked?

418
00:25:02,001 --> 00:25:03,001
At all times.

419
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:07,630
Brian!

420
00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:13,930
Brian, come here.

421
00:25:16,223 --> 00:25:17,223
Hm.

422
00:25:18,934 --> 00:25:20,854
This is Miss Leland.

423
00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:22,520
Ms. Leland.

424
00:25:24,523 --> 00:25:25,523
Hi, Brian.

425
00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,569
Bri, why don't you go inside
and read some Clifford?

426
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,240
I'll be right in.

427
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:36,909
Go on.

428
00:25:46,545 --> 00:25:47,545
Does he avoid you?

429
00:25:48,464 --> 00:25:49,884
He's had a tough few weeks.

430
00:25:49,965 --> 00:25:52,215
Ms. Leland, we love Brian.

431
00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:55,470
He may be adopted, but he's our baby.

432
00:25:55,554 --> 00:25:57,314
Of course he is, Mrs. Tench.

433
00:25:59,892 --> 00:26:02,482
At our next appointment, I'll
need the birth certificate,

434
00:26:02,561 --> 00:26:05,901
his medical records, and
all school reports.

435
00:26:07,316 --> 00:26:09,856
These explain the process.

436
00:26:11,987 --> 00:26:13,817
Basic child safety guidelines.

437
00:26:14,323 --> 00:26:16,913
I'll be stopping by periodically,
unannounced, to observe.

438
00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:19,280
We need to establish a baseline

439
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:20,792
for how he behaves in this environment

440
00:26:20,871 --> 00:26:22,291
to evaluate his progress.

441
00:26:22,372 --> 00:26:24,832
Then we can determine whether
adjustments need to be made.

442
00:26:24,917 --> 00:26:26,627
What kind of adjustments?

443
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:28,229
We won't know until
we've spent some time.

444
00:26:28,629 --> 00:26:31,049
Your appointments with Dr.
Moritz will be every Friday.

445
00:26:31,131 --> 00:26:32,671
You'll both need to attend.

446
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:35,120
Of course.

447
00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:37,927
We'll submit regular reports
to the commonwealth attorney

448
00:26:38,013 --> 00:26:39,523
with our recommendations.

449
00:26:39,598 --> 00:26:42,938
Ultimately, he'll make all
decisions moving forward.

450
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:51,572
We'll see you.

451
00:26:51,985 --> 00:26:53,445
Yes, you will.

452
00:26:57,699 --> 00:26:58,779
We do the exact same thing.

453
00:27:00,244 --> 00:27:01,414
What's that?

454
00:27:02,788 --> 00:27:03,998
Walk the crime scene.

455
00:27:08,127 --> 00:27:09,887
Don't get too comfortable around her.

456
00:27:10,963 --> 00:27:12,133
She's not our friend.

457
00:27:34,611 --> 00:27:35,651
Hold it!

458
00:27:36,697 --> 00:27:37,737
- FBI.
- Thank you.

459
00:27:45,164 --> 00:27:46,754
You hoping for an autograph?

460
00:27:46,832 --> 00:27:47,882
It's research.

461
00:27:48,542 --> 00:27:51,002
Try not to moisten yourself
before you get inside.

462
00:28:10,439 --> 00:28:13,439
It's gonna be a bit of a wait. He's
refusing to come out of his cell.

463
00:28:14,318 --> 00:28:15,438
I'm stunned.

464
00:28:16,528 --> 00:28:18,422
- Any chance Kemper's available?
- I can check.

465
00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:20,372
No! Not Kemper.

466
00:28:20,449 --> 00:28:21,909
We came to see Manson.

467
00:28:21,992 --> 00:28:23,912
- We'll wait him out.
- Bill, I'll be fine.

468
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:26,820
You need to ask Kemper

469
00:28:26,850 --> 00:28:29,040
about returning to the scene
of the crime, for BTK.

470
00:28:29,082 --> 00:28:30,542
We know he did that. He told us.

471
00:28:30,626 --> 00:28:31,876
But we need to know why.

472
00:28:33,045 --> 00:28:34,955
I will be fine.

473
00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:42,900
Besides, how's Manson gonna feel

474
00:28:42,930 --> 00:28:44,700
when he finds out we're
talking to Kemper?

475
00:28:45,474 --> 00:28:47,434
These guys are all
jealous of each other.

476
00:28:47,517 --> 00:28:49,557
For the use of reason

477
00:28:49,645 --> 00:28:55,145
is to justify the obscure
desires that move our conduct,

478
00:28:55,901 --> 00:28:58,401
impulses, passions,

479
00:28:58,487 --> 00:29:00,947
prejudice, and follies.

480
00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:06,695
Gentlemen.

481
00:29:07,371 --> 00:29:08,661
What a surprise.

482
00:29:12,084 --> 00:29:13,844
- Bill.
- Ed.

483
00:29:14,962 --> 00:29:15,962
Holden.

484
00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:18,627
Good to see you, Ed.

485
00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:20,474
Have a seat.

486
00:29:24,263 --> 00:29:26,643
Do you know that Holden came to see me

487
00:29:27,808 --> 00:29:29,268
when I was in the hospital?

488
00:29:29,685 --> 00:29:30,765
I'm aware.

489
00:29:30,852 --> 00:29:32,562
It really meant a lot to me.

490
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:35,895
That's what friends are for, right?

491
00:29:39,736 --> 00:29:41,736
So, Manson, huh?

492
00:29:41,947 --> 00:29:43,197
Word travels fast.

493
00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:45,953
Oh, it's hard to keep
something like that quiet.

494
00:29:46,034 --> 00:29:48,504
Everybody knows when
Charlie takes a shit.

495
00:29:48,578 --> 00:29:51,288
And if you haven't heard,
he'll tell you all about it.

496
00:29:51,832 --> 00:29:53,882
Even if somebody else
took the shit for him.

497
00:29:53,959 --> 00:29:56,839
- Right.
- He's never done that.

498
00:29:57,587 --> 00:29:59,007
Doesn't know what it's like.

499
00:29:59,298 --> 00:30:01,168
You're saying he's not
worth our attention?

500
00:30:01,258 --> 00:30:04,258
The "mayhem" has been
copiously mythologized.

501
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:07,348
If you really want to understand
how that all went down,

502
00:30:07,431 --> 00:30:08,641
you should talk to Tex.

503
00:30:09,057 --> 00:30:10,977
- The all-American pawn?
- Yeah.

504
00:30:11,643 --> 00:30:13,733
- I'm sure you're right, Bill.
- We'll keep that in mind.

505
00:30:13,812 --> 00:30:15,772
But we didn't come here
to talk about Manson.

506
00:30:15,856 --> 00:30:18,066
Oh.

507
00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:22,491
What did you want to talk about?

508
00:30:23,947 --> 00:30:25,317
You, Ed.

509
00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:29,163
I wanted to ask you about
something you said a while back.

510
00:30:29,244 --> 00:30:31,664
About revisiting the
sites of your victims.

511
00:30:32,164 --> 00:30:33,164
Mm-hmm?

512
00:30:33,749 --> 00:30:34,829
Why did you do that?

513
00:30:36,084 --> 00:30:39,054
Well, at the murder site, I
could relive the experience.

514
00:30:39,129 --> 00:30:40,629
Feel the same elation,

515
00:30:41,089 --> 00:30:42,719
the incredible release.

516
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:43,839
It excited you.

517
00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:45,676
Yes.

518
00:30:46,762 --> 00:30:49,472
I would also relive the
sexual gratification.

519
00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:52,100
What would make you decide to visit?

520
00:30:52,510 --> 00:30:54,200
The feeling of complete dominance,

521
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:56,397
total possession you get from a kill,

522
00:30:57,189 --> 00:30:58,439
becomes a need.

523
00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:01,570
That need builds until
it becomes a compulsion

524
00:31:01,651 --> 00:31:03,901
to a point that you have to hunt again.

525
00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:06,986
Sometimes, I could stave off that need

526
00:31:07,366 --> 00:31:09,326
by remembering the moment of the kill.

527
00:31:10,494 --> 00:31:13,414
You can really savor that when
you're in the exact spot.

528
00:31:13,497 --> 00:31:15,117
What if you can't make it to a site?

529
00:31:15,207 --> 00:31:16,497
Too many people around.

530
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:21,000
I kept things. Little trinkets.
Reminders of my experience.

531
00:31:21,020 --> 00:31:22,030
The Polaroids.

532
00:31:22,047 --> 00:31:24,047
I could hold them. Possess them.

533
00:31:24,591 --> 00:31:25,681
They were souvenirs.

534
00:31:25,967 --> 00:31:27,587
Was there a specific amount of time,

535
00:31:27,677 --> 00:31:31,307
something you could measure, when
the "souvenirs" weren't enough?

536
00:31:34,643 --> 00:31:36,523
Have you got somebody, Holden?

537
00:31:38,855 --> 00:31:40,065
Someone you can't catch?

538
00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:44,316
Is that right, Bill?

539
00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:47,610
Who is it? The East Area Rapist?
The San Mateo Slasher?

540
00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:50,079
I-45 Killer down in Texas?

541
00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:55,956
You've found somebody who
hasn't made the news yet.

542
00:31:57,416 --> 00:31:58,626
Just startin' out.

543
00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:00,788
Would you have any thoughts
on someone like that?

544
00:32:01,461 --> 00:32:02,501
Of course.

545
00:32:03,964 --> 00:32:06,724
But I'd have to be acquainted
with the pertinent facts.

546
00:32:07,634 --> 00:32:10,554
We can't discuss ongoing
investigations, Ed.

547
00:32:11,138 --> 00:32:12,138
With anyone.

548
00:32:12,556 --> 00:32:13,806
I'm sure you understand.

549
00:32:14,224 --> 00:32:15,224
Of course, Bill.

550
00:32:21,231 --> 00:32:23,151
It's a taxing lifestyle.

551
00:32:23,817 --> 00:32:26,607
A lot of factors that go into success.

552
00:32:27,237 --> 00:32:28,607
As I got better,

553
00:32:29,322 --> 00:32:32,952
I was very careful that all
conditions were exactly right.

554
00:32:36,788 --> 00:32:41,078
This person you're after, he has
an overwhelming fantasy life.

555
00:32:42,294 --> 00:32:45,764
Fantasies of what he's
done, what he wants to do,

556
00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:48,426
how he's going to improve.

557
00:32:50,552 --> 00:32:52,392
These dreams will consume him.

558
00:32:52,888 --> 00:32:55,138
Soon, the real world won't even compare.

559
00:32:57,142 --> 00:32:58,562
How do we catch a fantasy, Ed?

560
00:32:59,769 --> 00:33:01,479
You can't. If he's any good,

561
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,439
you'll never see it.

562
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:04,980
He'll live like any other person,

563
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,863
have relationships, hold down a job.

564
00:33:06,943 --> 00:33:09,493
We know killers don't have the
tools to manage real life.

565
00:33:09,863 --> 00:33:11,573
They come from marginalized backgrounds,

566
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,300
they break under the pressure
of what they've done.

567
00:33:13,330 --> 00:33:14,456
They make mistakes.

568
00:33:16,411 --> 00:33:18,961
It seems to me everything you
know about serial killers

569
00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,419
has been gleaned from the
ones who've been caught.

570
00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:27,505
He's ready.

571
00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:30,756
Sorry, Ed.

572
00:33:31,218 --> 00:33:33,928
That's all right, Bill.

573
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,680
Did you save enough
tape for the charlatan?

574
00:33:37,766 --> 00:33:38,926
I brought extra.

575
00:33:39,017 --> 00:33:40,437
You'll need it. He's a talker.

576
00:33:42,145 --> 00:33:43,555
I'm still trying to write my book.

577
00:33:43,647 --> 00:33:45,857
I just need access to a typewriter.

578
00:33:46,020 --> 00:33:47,380
Yeah, we'll see what we can do.

579
00:33:47,410 --> 00:33:48,534
Thank you, Bill.

580
00:33:48,610 --> 00:33:49,690
See you around.

581
00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:52,414
One more thing.

582
00:33:53,615 --> 00:33:55,405
Manson is really small.

583
00:33:56,326 --> 00:33:57,736
Like, really small.

584
00:33:58,578 --> 00:33:59,658
Try not to stare.

585
00:34:07,128 --> 00:34:08,418
Suck my dick!

586
00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:13,425
That's my bitch!

587
00:34:16,930 --> 00:34:18,100
Fuck you, man!

588
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:20,679
Fuck you!

589
00:34:24,396 --> 00:34:26,476
Fuck you! Fuck you!

590
00:34:45,041 --> 00:34:46,791
Do you think we should talk to Tex?

591
00:34:47,294 --> 00:34:49,464
You realize Kemper keeps reeling you in?

592
00:34:49,546 --> 00:34:52,086
He's the most cogent, credible
subject we've ever interviewed.

593
00:34:52,173 --> 00:34:53,190
The bar is low.

594
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,301
If Kemper hadn't turned himself in,

595
00:34:54,384 --> 00:34:56,144
he could've avoided capture
for as long as he wanted.

596
00:34:56,219 --> 00:34:57,549
He's an incredible resource.

597
00:34:58,179 --> 00:34:59,429
You bought a new microphone.

598
00:35:01,558 --> 00:35:02,558
For posterity.

599
00:35:13,111 --> 00:35:15,321
Like a fucking king.

600
00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:22,754
Uncuff him, please.

601
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:34,590
All of them.

602
00:35:36,176 --> 00:35:37,586
I'm Special Agent Tench.

603
00:35:38,011 --> 00:35:39,431
This is Special Agent Ford.

604
00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:42,426
This isn't an interrogation, Mr. Manson.

605
00:35:42,515 --> 00:35:45,345
We know that you didn't commit
the Tate or LaBianca murders.

606
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:48,610
What we're interested in is your
relationship with your Family.

607
00:35:48,688 --> 00:35:51,108
And what bearing that
relationship had on the crimes.

608
00:35:51,733 --> 00:35:52,733
Please.

609
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:01,034
We'd like to hear from you,

610
00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:02,200
in your own words,

611
00:36:02,230 --> 00:36:03,670
about what happened.

612
00:36:20,345 --> 00:36:21,885
Do you mind if we record this?

613
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:29,180
Over the years,

614
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,280
some members have blamed
you for the murders,

615
00:36:31,731 --> 00:36:33,111
then changed their story.

616
00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:36,360
Others, quite famously,
have protected you.

617
00:36:36,778 --> 00:36:39,198
You seem to have a hold
on them even from prison.

618
00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,491
But no matter what they say,

619
00:36:41,825 --> 00:36:43,365
you maintain the same story.

620
00:36:43,868 --> 00:36:45,698
Because my truth is simple.

621
00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,037
- And your truth's complicated.
- Complicated how?

622
00:36:49,249 --> 00:36:51,959
Well, you don't see it, but
the only truth is now.

623
00:36:52,293 --> 00:36:54,553
Now is the only thing that's real.

624
00:36:54,629 --> 00:36:57,089
Well, we're mainly interested in then.

625
00:36:57,173 --> 00:36:58,883
How you met, influenced,

626
00:36:58,967 --> 00:37:00,797
and indoctrinated the
people who followed you.

627
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:02,465
Indoctrinated? Come on, man.

628
00:37:03,555 --> 00:37:04,845
How did the Family begin?

629
00:37:05,140 --> 00:37:06,270
Did you start with the girls?

630
00:37:06,349 --> 00:37:07,849
These people you call the "Family,"

631
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:09,814
they're just children
that you didn't want.

632
00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:11,564
You threw 'em out like trash.

633
00:37:11,646 --> 00:37:14,266
So I picked them up off the side
of the road, and I said this:

634
00:37:14,774 --> 00:37:16,744
in love, there is no wrong.

635
00:37:16,818 --> 00:37:18,948
Love? That's what you
taught your Family?

636
00:37:21,114 --> 00:37:22,874
You're a family man, Agent Tench?

637
00:37:24,826 --> 00:37:25,866
- Yeah.
- Yeah?

638
00:37:26,453 --> 00:37:29,413
Yeah, he's a family man, too,
with his keys and his gun.

639
00:37:29,831 --> 00:37:31,881
He's teaching his children right now.

640
00:37:31,958 --> 00:37:34,708
They're learning his beliefs,
and they'll be living 'em.

641
00:37:34,794 --> 00:37:37,514
And you, you're teaching your children.

642
00:37:37,964 --> 00:37:41,054
Look at yourself, judge
the lies you live in.

643
00:37:41,468 --> 00:37:43,338
These children that come
at you with knives,

644
00:37:43,428 --> 00:37:44,598
they're your children.

645
00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:47,019
They were your followers, Charlie.
You gave them the knife.

646
00:37:47,098 --> 00:37:49,388
You taught 'em! I didn't teach 'em.

647
00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:51,186
I just tried to help 'em stand up.

648
00:37:51,269 --> 00:37:54,059
And they stood up, went out, and
killed seven innocent people.

649
00:37:54,147 --> 00:37:55,647
Oh, so now it's my fault?

650
00:37:56,024 --> 00:37:58,574
It's my fault that your
children do what they do?

651
00:37:59,319 --> 00:38:01,609
Your own children who
you are neglecting?

652
00:38:01,696 --> 00:38:03,007
We know that no one in the Family

653
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:04,406
acted without your approval, Charlie.

654
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:06,000
Well, if you know, you know.

655
00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:07,951
You don't need to talk to me.

656
00:38:08,036 --> 00:38:10,206
It's yourself you need to talk to.

657
00:38:16,002 --> 00:38:18,052
Let's talk about August 9th, 1969.

658
00:38:18,129 --> 00:38:19,669
That is gone in the past.

659
00:38:19,756 --> 00:38:22,006
And when it is gone,
it is gone, brother.

660
00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:23,660
That summer, you told the Family,

661
00:38:23,690 --> 00:38:25,551
"Now is the time for Helter Skelter."

662
00:38:25,637 --> 00:38:27,042
That they needed to start a race war

663
00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:28,387
by murdering wealthy white people...

664
00:38:28,473 --> 00:38:30,983
That's the district attorney's
fantasy. That's his fears.

665
00:38:31,059 --> 00:38:33,059
That's a reflection of his fears.

666
00:38:33,144 --> 00:38:35,234
So you're saying that
this never happened?

667
00:38:35,313 --> 00:38:37,023
Sure, I'm saying that never happened!

668
00:38:37,106 --> 00:38:39,476
Bugliosi is a genius, man!

669
00:38:39,567 --> 00:38:43,317
He got everything a prosecutor would
want, except one thing: a case.

670
00:38:43,947 --> 00:38:44,947
He doesn't have a case!

671
00:38:45,448 --> 00:38:47,868
So he puts Linda Kasabian on the stand,

672
00:38:47,951 --> 00:38:50,831
and she tells a sad story
about how she has lied,

673
00:38:50,912 --> 00:38:52,292
and cheated, and...

674
00:38:52,372 --> 00:38:55,252
and done every dishonest
thing that she can think of.

675
00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:58,293
Oh, but it's okay, she's
telling the truth now.

676
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:00,960
She wouldn't have any ulterior motive,

677
00:39:00,990 --> 00:39:03,380
like immunity for seven
counts of murder.

678
00:39:03,466 --> 00:39:05,836
You're saying she lied?
All the witnesses lied?

679
00:39:05,927 --> 00:39:09,467
Each witness got up and testified
only what was best for them.

680
00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:11,636
They didn't testify
what was best for me.

681
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:15,559
Do you believe this
Helter Skelter bullshit?

682
00:39:15,645 --> 00:39:17,685
"Death to Pigs." "Political Piggy."

683
00:39:18,147 --> 00:39:21,147
- Got to admit, it sounds like a vision.
- There's no vision.

684
00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:24,031
I might have had an opinion
about blacks and whites

685
00:39:24,112 --> 00:39:25,782
and the hassles they were havin'.

686
00:39:25,864 --> 00:39:28,264
But I don't recall saying anything
about starting a race war.

687
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:29,990
So how did that become the story?

688
00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:33,576
It was Sadie who started hearing
messages in the White Album.

689
00:39:33,872 --> 00:39:38,042
She gave the media the material for
any perversion they cared print.

690
00:39:38,126 --> 00:39:39,416
The DA grabbed Sadie's version,

691
00:39:39,502 --> 00:39:41,592
ran all the way through
the courtroom with it:

692
00:39:41,671 --> 00:39:44,631
"Charles Manson: the most
dangerous man alive."

693
00:39:45,174 --> 00:39:48,514
"Hippie cult leader who
programmed people to kill."

694
00:39:48,590 --> 00:39:50,500
In that book, he's got me so powerful,

695
00:39:50,530 --> 00:39:52,425
a look from me stopped his watch!

696
00:39:53,182 --> 00:39:54,732
I'd lay there in my cell wondering,

697
00:39:54,809 --> 00:39:56,809
"Wow, am I really all they say?"

698
00:39:57,186 --> 00:39:59,266
I was halfway believing
that shit myself.

699
00:39:59,939 --> 00:40:02,229
But I've been staring
at every clock I see.

700
00:40:02,317 --> 00:40:03,567
And you know what?

701
00:40:03,651 --> 00:40:05,821
As hard as I stare, the
clock never stops.

702
00:40:05,904 --> 00:40:08,704
You had a group of teenagers
isolated in the desert.

703
00:40:08,781 --> 00:40:10,911
You gave 'em drugs, you
convinced 'em you were God,

704
00:40:10,992 --> 00:40:12,162
and you sent 'em out to kill.

705
00:40:12,243 --> 00:40:16,293
Listen man, Bobby Beausoleil was
sitting in jail for murder, you dig?

706
00:40:16,664 --> 00:40:18,254
Tex and Sadie came to me

707
00:40:18,333 --> 00:40:21,383
and said, "Let's do some copycat
killings to get him off."

708
00:40:21,669 --> 00:40:24,169
You're saying the murders, everything,

709
00:40:24,797 --> 00:40:26,587
was just to get Bobby
Beausoleil out of prison?

710
00:40:26,674 --> 00:40:30,514
Those kids were looking
at me with hard eyes.

711
00:40:31,179 --> 00:40:32,429
Yeah, your kids.

712
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:35,517
Tex Watson, the all-American boy?

713
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,100
The pride of Copeville, Texas?

714
00:40:37,185 --> 00:40:39,475
I have better sense than
to disagree with him.

715
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:41,561
So I said this:

716
00:40:41,648 --> 00:40:43,608
"You do what your love tells you to do.

717
00:40:43,691 --> 00:40:45,491
I'll do what my love tells me."

718
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,600
Now whatever he did, that's up to him.

719
00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:48,690
He'll have to explain it to you.

720
00:40:48,738 --> 00:40:49,948
Just to be clear,

721
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,530
this was their plan? You
weren't responsible...

722
00:40:53,618 --> 00:40:56,448
You got a circle that a
man lives inside of.

723
00:40:56,537 --> 00:41:00,247
He's responsible for his
circle and his circle only.

724
00:41:00,333 --> 00:41:02,503
Now, I don't recall
saying anything about,

725
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:05,335
"Go get a knife and kill
anyone" or anything.

726
00:41:05,421 --> 00:41:06,421
Bullshit.

727
00:41:07,632 --> 00:41:10,552
If I wanted, I could kill
you with your mic cord.

728
00:41:10,927 --> 00:41:12,097
With your pencil.

729
00:41:12,804 --> 00:41:15,224
But I wanna love myself, so
I'm not going to do that.

730
00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:17,346
No, you're gonna put it
in someone else's circle.

731
00:41:18,935 --> 00:41:20,395
Listen, man. Tex?

732
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:22,160
It was hard to tell if he was at the end

733
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:23,978
of an old high or startin' a new one.

734
00:41:24,065 --> 00:41:26,065
Now, I went back to the Cielo
Drive house that night,

735
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:28,700
and sent one of the kids inside
to see if he'd really done it.

736
00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:29,778
Why didn't you go inside?

737
00:41:30,738 --> 00:41:33,278
It was a crime scene. I'd have
been in violation of my parole.

738
00:41:34,951 --> 00:41:37,911
But you were at the LaBianca
murders, weren't you, Charlie?

739
00:41:37,996 --> 00:41:39,706
I had to go. I had to go.

740
00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:42,825
- You had to?
- Yeah. Listen, Tex,

741
00:41:42,917 --> 00:41:44,627
he put himself on me, man.

742
00:41:44,711 --> 00:41:46,211
He tried to make me look weak.

743
00:41:46,713 --> 00:41:49,053
We were moving forward inside ourselves.

744
00:41:49,132 --> 00:41:51,762
We were learnin' new things.
And he changed it.

745
00:41:51,843 --> 00:41:54,103
See, he went outside.
He made his own circle.

746
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:57,849
And, what, now he wants to
go back to "Jesus loves me"?

747
00:41:58,266 --> 00:41:59,346
Blood of the lamb,

748
00:41:59,434 --> 00:42:02,484
the right/wrong games we
played for 2,000 years?

749
00:42:02,562 --> 00:42:03,982
Right and wrong is a game?

750
00:42:04,063 --> 00:42:07,113
There are no rights and
wrongs, only ises.

751
00:42:07,608 --> 00:42:09,108
Whatever life is, it is.

752
00:42:09,193 --> 00:42:11,153
Right and wrong got
nothing to do with it.

753
00:42:11,237 --> 00:42:13,447
So the murder of seven people just "is"?

754
00:42:15,074 --> 00:42:18,414
Well, it is, isn't it?

755
00:42:19,287 --> 00:42:21,537
No one ever dies, no one ever lives.

756
00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:23,712
Those are two words in a leftover game.

757
00:42:23,791 --> 00:42:25,501
People did die, Charlie.
You made sure of it.

758
00:42:25,585 --> 00:42:26,995
Everything is love, man.

759
00:42:27,086 --> 00:42:28,586
There's nothing that isn't love.

760
00:42:28,671 --> 00:42:30,589
Really? Nothin'?

761
00:42:31,257 --> 00:42:32,837
How much more of this shit
do you wanna listen to?

762
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:35,795
You need to walk on a
different street, guy.

763
00:42:35,887 --> 00:42:38,347
Put your clothes on backwards,
and let everyone laugh at you.

764
00:42:38,431 --> 00:42:39,561
You're a coward, Charlie.

765
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,850
A coward who takes no
responsibility for his actions.

766
00:42:41,934 --> 00:42:44,354
Yeah, you eat meat with your teeth,

767
00:42:44,437 --> 00:42:46,437
you kill things that
are better than you,

768
00:42:46,522 --> 00:42:48,272
and then you say your
children are killers.

769
00:42:48,357 --> 00:42:49,527
No, I'm saying you're a killer.

770
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:50,850
I have killed no one...

771
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:52,199
You ordered them to go to that house

772
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:55,070
- and slaughter everyone there.
- ... and I wanted no one to be killed.

773
00:42:56,190 --> 00:42:58,250
I did not direct anyone to do anything

774
00:42:58,270 --> 00:42:59,909
other than what they wanted to do.

775
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:01,164
You didn't stop them either.

776
00:43:01,245 --> 00:43:04,575
I always let children go. If he
falls, that is how he learns.

777
00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:06,125
You become strong by fallin'.

778
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,880
You're not supposed
to let children fall.

779
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:08,959
You're supposed to guide them.

780
00:43:09,045 --> 00:43:10,795
Guide them into what?

781
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,800
Guide them into what
you've guided them into?

782
00:43:12,882 --> 00:43:14,842
- You fucking midget!
- Bill!

783
00:43:20,056 --> 00:43:21,716
This anger that you're
feeling, Agent Tench,

784
00:43:21,808 --> 00:43:23,888
this is just the anger
that you have got for you.

785
00:43:24,477 --> 00:43:26,147
Find someone else to put yourself on.

786
00:43:26,229 --> 00:43:30,149
I'm tired of being your goat. I'm
tired of being your reflection.

787
00:43:30,233 --> 00:43:32,863
- You're not my reflection.
- I've always been yours.

788
00:43:32,944 --> 00:43:35,204
I've been in your cell since
I was eight years old.

789
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:36,489
I don't even have a name.

790
00:43:36,572 --> 00:43:38,782
I'm B-33920.

791
00:43:38,866 --> 00:43:40,326
A bell rings, I get up!

792
00:43:40,993 --> 00:43:43,003
A bell rings, I go out!

793
00:43:43,079 --> 00:43:45,999
A bell rings, I do what that bell says.

794
00:43:46,082 --> 00:43:47,712
I'm Pavlov's dog, man.

795
00:43:47,792 --> 00:43:49,542
I'm anything you want me to be.

796
00:43:51,921 --> 00:43:54,011
But what you want is a fiend...

797
00:43:54,715 --> 00:43:56,295
because that's what you are.

798
00:43:56,884 --> 00:43:59,264
See, I never had any say in your world,

799
00:43:59,345 --> 00:44:00,715
you created it.

800
00:44:02,223 --> 00:44:04,603
How do you feel about those murders?

801
00:44:04,684 --> 00:44:05,854
That's what counts.

802
00:44:06,352 --> 00:44:09,112
Happened in your world, not in mine.

803
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,900
What "counts" is that you ordered
the deaths of seven people.

804
00:44:12,984 --> 00:44:15,244
Eight if you "count" an unborn baby.

805
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:17,609
And now you can reflect it back on me,

806
00:44:17,697 --> 00:44:20,027
and you can lock me up
in your penitentiary,

807
00:44:20,116 --> 00:44:22,326
and you can say that
your world's better.

808
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:24,949
But prison's a frame of thought.

809
00:44:25,663 --> 00:44:28,213
We're all our own prisons,
we are each our own wardens,

810
00:44:28,291 --> 00:44:29,791
we do our own time.

811
00:44:30,334 --> 00:44:32,094
Prison is in your mind.

812
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:34,380
Can't you see I'm free?

813
00:44:34,463 --> 00:44:37,763
- You don't look so free to me, Charlie.
- You don't look free to me!

814
00:44:38,176 --> 00:44:41,426
You look like a composite of
what someone told you you are.

815
00:44:41,971 --> 00:44:45,391
You live for other people's
opinion, you got pain on your face,

816
00:44:45,474 --> 00:44:46,934
and you wonder if you look okay.

817
00:44:47,018 --> 00:44:48,478
- That's it.
- Bill.

818
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,480
Hey, man.

819
00:44:52,565 --> 00:44:54,315
I like your sunglasses.

820
00:44:55,026 --> 00:44:56,066
Can I have 'em?

821
00:45:06,287 --> 00:45:07,957
Thank you kindly.

822
00:45:08,030 --> 00:45:11,350
The guru of Munchkinland can
fuck off straight to hell

823
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:12,660
as far as I'm concerned.

824
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,000
Agent Ford!

825
00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:24,181
Manson said he lifted these from you.

826
00:45:24,764 --> 00:45:27,314
- He said he stole them?
- He was braggin' about it.

827
00:45:27,391 --> 00:45:28,561
He's on his way to the hole.

828
00:45:33,314 --> 00:45:34,614
It's such bullshit.

829
00:45:35,608 --> 00:45:36,898
What makes more sense?

830
00:45:37,652 --> 00:45:40,952
Manson being forced to go along
with Tex and Sadie's copycat crime,

831
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:43,200
or a race war predicted by the Beatles?

832
00:45:43,282 --> 00:45:44,582
You're saying the DA lied?

833
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:48,730
I'm saying he gave it a narrative.

834
00:45:49,872 --> 00:45:52,882
He had to explain to a
normal, middle-class jury

835
00:45:52,959 --> 00:45:56,459
how some normal, middle-class kids
brutally murdered seven people.

836
00:45:56,796 --> 00:45:57,796
Jesus, Holden.

837
00:46:00,258 --> 00:46:01,428
Watson's an hour away.

838
00:46:01,634 --> 00:46:03,264
Let's just spend the
night and talk to him.

839
00:46:03,344 --> 00:46:04,354
I have to get home.

840
00:46:06,222 --> 00:46:08,982
- You can't spend one more day?
- No, I can't.

841
00:46:09,392 --> 00:46:11,522
And after Atlanta, we
can't fuck up again.

842
00:46:16,649 --> 00:46:19,989
If you stay and do this
interview, I need to know,

843
00:46:20,528 --> 00:46:21,528
can I trust you?

844
00:46:23,281 --> 00:46:24,281
Absolutely.

845
00:46:25,533 --> 00:46:28,623
Just go in, do the interview,
come home. Got it?

846
00:46:28,953 --> 00:46:29,953
I promise.

847
00:46:31,706 --> 00:46:32,706
Thanks, Bill.

848
00:46:33,165 --> 00:46:36,835
Fuck. What time have you got?

849
00:46:38,296 --> 00:46:39,506
5:16.

850
00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:41,918
Something wrong with your watch?

851
00:46:57,648 --> 00:46:58,648
Excuse me!

852
00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:01,396
FBI. Is there any way you
could hold the plane?

853
00:47:01,485 --> 00:47:02,815
I'm sorry, sir. It's gone.

854
00:47:02,987 --> 00:47:05,157
Is there a red-eye?

855
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,449
10:00 pm. Arrives in Washington at 6:30.

856
00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:10,410
Thanks.

857
00:47:32,016 --> 00:47:33,926
I apologize.

858
00:47:34,018 --> 00:47:37,478
I can catch him up on things
if you... wanna start.

859
00:47:37,563 --> 00:47:40,113
The appointment is for the
benefit of both parents.

860
00:47:43,778 --> 00:47:44,778
I'm sorry.

861
00:47:47,615 --> 00:47:48,865
So sorry I'm late.

862
00:47:49,784 --> 00:47:50,994
Of course. It happens.

863
00:47:51,700 --> 00:47:54,220
I just, uh, would be careful being late

864
00:47:54,250 --> 00:47:55,500
to appointments with Ms. Leland

865
00:47:55,530 --> 00:47:56,560
or the CA's office.

866
00:47:56,916 --> 00:47:59,536
What we're trying to do here is
avoid as many red flags as we can.

867
00:47:59,627 --> 00:48:00,627
Absolutely.

868
00:48:01,295 --> 00:48:02,335
I'm here to help you both,

869
00:48:02,922 --> 00:48:06,632
and Brian, of course, get through
this as easily as possible.

870
00:48:07,110 --> 00:48:08,215
Thank you.

871
00:48:08,302 --> 00:48:11,182
Now, the goal of our sessions will
be to glean Brian's understanding

872
00:48:11,263 --> 00:48:13,223
of the event, his intentions...

873
00:48:13,307 --> 00:48:15,807
He didn't mean to do
anything to that little boy.

874
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:17,845
He thought by making a cross...

875
00:48:17,937 --> 00:48:20,817
Mrs. Tench, I... I'm going to
need to hear that from Brian.

876
00:48:20,898 --> 00:48:22,618
Well, I think I understand my child.

877
00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:24,815
Your knowledge of Brian's behaviors

878
00:48:24,902 --> 00:48:26,032
is going to be essential.

879
00:48:26,112 --> 00:48:28,282
But we have to complete
the process methodically.

880
00:48:29,156 --> 00:48:30,156
We understand.

881
00:48:32,493 --> 00:48:34,503
Uh, let's start with homelife.

882
00:48:34,570 --> 00:48:35,880
I see, from Ms. Leland,

883
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:37,998
that your work with the
Bureau involves some travel.

884
00:48:38,082 --> 00:48:39,962
Your wife tells me you
teach "road school"?

885
00:48:40,042 --> 00:48:41,882
He's home most of the time now.

886
00:48:44,338 --> 00:48:46,218
Why exactly were you late, Mr. Tench?

887
00:48:46,632 --> 00:48:49,052
I work in Behavioral
Sciences for the FBI.

888
00:48:50,428 --> 00:48:53,718
- I don't know what that means.
- My unit develops procedures

889
00:48:53,806 --> 00:48:55,016
for identifying criminals

890
00:48:55,099 --> 00:48:57,099
by their psychological fingerprint.

891
00:48:57,184 --> 00:48:58,484
And how do you do that?

892
00:48:59,645 --> 00:49:02,145
We conduct interviews
with convicted felons,

893
00:49:02,231 --> 00:49:03,981
try to codify their behavior,

894
00:49:04,275 --> 00:49:06,435
gain insight into their mental states.

895
00:49:06,527 --> 00:49:08,237
What types of criminals
do you deal with?

896
00:49:08,696 --> 00:49:10,986
I study multiple murderers.

897
00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:22,039
And were you interviewing an
actual murderer this morning?

898
00:49:23,043 --> 00:49:25,133
I was late because I was in California

899
00:49:25,421 --> 00:49:27,051
interviewing Charles Manson.

900
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,680
Manson?

901
00:49:30,718 --> 00:49:31,718
Yes, sir.

902
00:49:33,512 --> 00:49:35,972
Wait. You spoke directly
with Charles Manson?

903
00:49:37,183 --> 00:49:39,773
Wow. He is quite the
character, isn't he?

904
00:49:40,186 --> 00:49:41,306
You ain't kiddin'.

905
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:43,320
Yeah, I... I must admit,
I'm very intrigued

906
00:49:43,350 --> 00:49:45,395
by what that conversation was like.

907
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:47,440
Could you share any tidbits?

908
00:49:49,111 --> 00:49:50,111
Sure.

909
00:49:52,781 --> 00:49:54,071
Now that I've been in here a while,

910
00:49:54,158 --> 00:49:56,158
I understand Charlie a whole lot better.

911
00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:57,535
How so?

912
00:49:58,162 --> 00:49:59,332
It's survival.

913
00:49:59,914 --> 00:50:04,044
Charlie's not a tough guy, so
he created a prophet persona.

914
00:50:04,126 --> 00:50:05,746
A false prophet, for sure.

915
00:50:06,378 --> 00:50:09,668
Nothing he ever said came true
except for the things we did.

916
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:14,390
But he could convince you of
things you never thought possible.

917
00:50:14,970 --> 00:50:18,680
We didn't know if he was
Jesus or the Devil, but...

918
00:50:19,433 --> 00:50:21,523
either was better than
facing the world alone.

919
00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:24,812
But you didn't grow up alone. You
said you had a loving family.

920
00:50:24,897 --> 00:50:28,317
You must have developed a moral
compass before you ever met Charlie.

921
00:50:29,318 --> 00:50:30,850
Let's just say Charlie had a way

922
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:33,108
of making you think
things were your idea.

923
00:50:34,198 --> 00:50:37,908
He'd start small, like,
he'd gather us in a circle,

924
00:50:37,993 --> 00:50:40,203
and he'd put a chair in the middle,

925
00:50:40,287 --> 00:50:44,287
and he would tell us to imagine
there was a person in that chair

926
00:50:44,375 --> 00:50:46,165
and that we had to scare them to death.

927
00:50:47,086 --> 00:50:48,916
Staring at 'em. Screaming at 'em.

928
00:50:49,004 --> 00:50:50,134
An empty chair?

929
00:50:50,506 --> 00:50:53,336
But in our minds, they were sirens
of the apocalypse sittin' there.

930
00:50:53,801 --> 00:50:56,391
Charlie would talk about
things we might do to them.

931
00:50:57,304 --> 00:50:59,854
Like, break into their houses,

932
00:50:59,932 --> 00:51:02,852
tie them up, kill their families.

933
00:51:03,561 --> 00:51:06,941
Those ideas, they were only ours
because they were his first.

934
00:51:07,314 --> 00:51:10,574
Once we incorporated them, he'd
send us out creepy-crawling.

935
00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:12,340
Sorry. What is creepy-crawling?

936
00:51:12,380 --> 00:51:13,701
It's what Charlie called it,

937
00:51:13,779 --> 00:51:15,819
sneakin' into people's houses,

938
00:51:15,906 --> 00:51:17,656
movin' furniture around.

939
00:51:18,075 --> 00:51:21,785
He said it would help us face
our fears, go beyond them.

940
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:23,840
But Charlie was giving us so many drugs,

941
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,100
we didn't know what fear was.

942
00:51:25,110 --> 00:51:26,120
He gave them to you?

943
00:51:26,417 --> 00:51:29,997
Belladonna, Orange Sunshine, STP.

944
00:51:30,337 --> 00:51:32,587
By the time Charlie said
Helter Skelter was coming,

945
00:51:32,673 --> 00:51:34,450
we were doin' really heavy stuff.

946
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,050
Charlie talked about Helter Skelter?

947
00:51:36,135 --> 00:51:37,135
All the time.

948
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:40,389
He told us Helter Skelter was
concocted by the district attorney.

949
00:51:40,931 --> 00:51:44,231
From the moment I met him, Charlie
was talkin' about a race war.

950
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:47,610
We lived every day thinking
the world was about to end.

951
00:51:48,105 --> 00:51:49,515
There is freedom in that.

952
00:51:50,024 --> 00:51:52,574
If there's no tomorrow,
there's no consequences.

953
00:51:53,777 --> 00:51:56,447
Does it matter what you do
on your last day on earth?

954
00:51:57,072 --> 00:51:59,242
What crimes might you
commit, Agent Ford?

955
00:51:59,325 --> 00:52:01,945
I'd like to think I'd still
know right from wrong.

956
00:52:02,036 --> 00:52:03,576
By then, there was no wrong.

957
00:52:03,662 --> 00:52:05,752
I had no conscience. That
had been taken from me.

958
00:52:05,831 --> 00:52:06,831
By Charlie?

959
00:52:08,667 --> 00:52:10,707
Charlie said you and Sadie
came up with the murders

960
00:52:10,794 --> 00:52:13,344
as a way of getting Bobby
Beausoleil out of prison.

961
00:52:14,131 --> 00:52:16,841
You have to understand, we were all one.

962
00:52:16,925 --> 00:52:18,175
We were part of the all.

963
00:52:18,260 --> 00:52:20,100
We thought the same thoughts.

964
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:21,468
Charlie kept saying

965
00:52:21,555 --> 00:52:23,845
that if blackie didn't
start Helter Skelter soon,

966
00:52:23,932 --> 00:52:25,482
then we'd have to show 'em how.

967
00:52:26,435 --> 00:52:28,725
He chose Cielo Drive because
he'd been there before.

968
00:52:28,812 --> 00:52:31,862
- So that was his idea.
- They were all his ideas.

969
00:52:31,940 --> 00:52:33,320
But he didn't go with you.

970
00:52:33,901 --> 00:52:36,151
Charlie wasn't about
getting his hands dirty.

971
00:52:36,236 --> 00:52:37,446
He did go to the house.

972
00:52:37,529 --> 00:52:39,529
Only after it was all over.

973
00:52:42,326 --> 00:52:45,616
Did Charlie give you or the
girls any specific orders?

974
00:52:46,705 --> 00:52:47,955
He told me to kill everyone.

975
00:52:48,457 --> 00:52:51,207
He said, "Make it as
gruesome as you can."

976
00:52:51,293 --> 00:52:52,753
Told me, "Kill 'em all."

977
00:52:53,545 --> 00:52:55,335
And you did.

978
00:52:55,798 --> 00:52:57,678
Yes, sir.

979
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:06,270
I remember... being in the car.

980
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,200
I had so many drugs in my system,

981
00:53:09,220 --> 00:53:11,438
my mind kept phasing in and out.

982
00:53:12,189 --> 00:53:14,729
I was lyin' with my head in Sadie's lap.

983
00:53:17,111 --> 00:53:20,571
She shook me and told me
to cut the phone lines.

984
00:53:21,448 --> 00:53:24,788
Next thing I remember, we
were walkin' up the drive.

985
00:53:25,369 --> 00:53:29,079
There were headlights, and
Sadie hollered, "Get him."

986
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:30,922
I looked down,

987
00:53:31,417 --> 00:53:32,667
I had a gun in my hand,

988
00:53:32,751 --> 00:53:34,001
so I stuck it in the window

989
00:53:34,086 --> 00:53:35,296
and I pulled the trigger.

990
00:53:35,379 --> 00:53:37,669
There was no thought. No feeling at all.

991
00:53:37,756 --> 00:53:39,626
Eighteen-year-old Steven Parent.

992
00:53:40,426 --> 00:53:42,756
That was the first true sin of my life.

993
00:53:44,012 --> 00:53:45,222
But I've repented of it.

994
00:53:45,305 --> 00:53:48,345
God's grace has blessed my soul
with the peace of his forgiveness.

995
00:53:48,434 --> 00:53:50,144
You said you felt nothing?

996
00:53:50,811 --> 00:53:52,561
Because death didn't matter to us.

997
00:53:54,565 --> 00:53:55,565
Okay.

998
00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:00,948
What happened in the house?

999
00:54:03,282 --> 00:54:05,662
I remember following Sadie inside.

1000
00:54:07,661 --> 00:54:10,291
There was a man asleep on the couch,

1001
00:54:11,206 --> 00:54:12,326
it was quiet.

1002
00:54:14,418 --> 00:54:16,918
Then people started coming
in from other rooms.

1003
00:54:17,004 --> 00:54:19,174
A man was comin' at me, yellin'.

1004
00:54:19,256 --> 00:54:21,876
I... I had the gun, so I shot him.

1005
00:54:23,385 --> 00:54:25,385
Everything just busted open.

1006
00:54:25,471 --> 00:54:26,721
Women were screamin'.

1007
00:54:26,805 --> 00:54:29,515
We were stabbin' people, runnin' around.

1008
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,640
There was blood everywhere.

1009
00:54:31,727 --> 00:54:33,227
Did you feel anything then?

1010
00:54:33,312 --> 00:54:35,232
Sadie had to kick me to get me going.

1011
00:54:35,314 --> 00:54:37,904
But you... got going.

1012
00:54:38,776 --> 00:54:41,736
You have to remember, those
people, they were just shapes.

1013
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:43,240
They had no faces.

1014
00:54:44,490 --> 00:54:46,370
Sadie was outside hollerin' for me.

1015
00:54:46,450 --> 00:54:48,740
She had this woman pinned on the lawn...

1016
00:54:48,827 --> 00:54:50,577
... so I stabbed her.

1017
00:54:50,662 --> 00:54:55,082
You stabbed Abigail Folger... 28 times.

1018
00:54:55,167 --> 00:54:56,877
Yeah.

1019
00:54:57,753 --> 00:55:00,133
She was... practically
dead when I got there.

1020
00:55:01,924 --> 00:55:04,724
Frykowski had 51 stab wounds.

1021
00:55:05,177 --> 00:55:08,507
I remember the knife going
up and down, like, um...

1022
00:55:08,597 --> 00:55:11,387
... a hammer in an engine block

1023
00:55:11,475 --> 00:55:13,845
until my fist disappeared in the mess.

1024
00:55:16,605 --> 00:55:17,605
And then?

1025
00:55:18,106 --> 00:55:20,746
And then we went into the living room.

1026
00:55:23,195 --> 00:55:24,485
Where Sharon Tate was.

1027
00:55:28,033 --> 00:55:29,243
Could you see she was pregnant?

1028
00:55:29,326 --> 00:55:30,786
Oh, yeah.

1029
00:55:30,869 --> 00:55:32,449
If there are any problems, I'm
gonna talk to him about it.

1030
00:55:32,538 --> 00:55:33,550
They're gonna try.

1031
00:55:40,838 --> 00:55:43,008
She begged us to take her with us,

1032
00:55:43,090 --> 00:55:45,880
let her have her baby
and kill her after.

1033
00:55:53,642 --> 00:55:55,522
Tex?

1034
00:55:57,312 --> 00:55:59,982
It didn't seem crazy at the
time, the idea of takin' her.

1035
00:56:00,774 --> 00:56:02,534
But I kept hearing Charlie's voice,

1036
00:56:02,609 --> 00:56:03,689
"Kill 'em all."

1037
00:56:04,027 --> 00:56:06,817
He told me over and over again,
"Make sure everyone's dead."

1038
00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:09,420
So you made sure.

1039
00:56:09,449 --> 00:56:11,619
I did what Charlie told me.

1040
00:56:12,995 --> 00:56:14,325
Except go to the other houses.

1041
00:56:15,205 --> 00:56:16,285
What other houses?

1042
00:56:16,665 --> 00:56:19,785
Charlie had given us a
list, but... I was tired.

1043
00:56:20,377 --> 00:56:22,497
It's hard stabbin' people, Agent Ford.

1044
00:56:22,588 --> 00:56:25,798
Sometimes you hit bone.
My hands were aching.

1045
00:56:27,467 --> 00:56:29,297
So we went back to the ranch, and...

1046
00:56:30,095 --> 00:56:31,465
and I slept like a baby.

1047
00:56:33,473 --> 00:56:36,643
Tex, do you think you would
have ever killed anyone

1048
00:56:36,727 --> 00:56:38,147
if you hadn't met Charlie?

1049
00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:39,478
I hope not.

1050
00:56:40,188 --> 00:56:42,148
I pray to God I wouldn't have, but...

1051
00:56:44,109 --> 00:56:46,109
I know, in my heart, I harbored anger.

1052
00:56:46,194 --> 00:56:48,574
I shot and I stabbed them.

1053
00:56:49,114 --> 00:56:52,494
I beat Frykowski's head with a
pistol until it broke in my hand.

1054
00:56:52,576 --> 00:56:54,196
But Charlie told you to do it.

1055
00:56:54,828 --> 00:56:56,578
Charlie never killed anyone.

1056
00:56:57,414 --> 00:56:59,504
He just removed our fear of doin' it.

1057
00:57:00,792 --> 00:57:02,922
So you're taking responsibility.

1058
00:57:03,837 --> 00:57:05,337
I killed those people.

1059
00:57:06,131 --> 00:57:07,131
All of them.

1060
00:57:07,716 --> 00:57:10,176
Those people are victims
of the Watson murders.

1061
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,500
But the Bible tells us, all have sinned,

1062
00:57:13,530 --> 00:57:15,814
and all fall short of the glory of God.

1063
00:57:15,891 --> 00:57:18,231
He who confesses obtains mercy.

1064
00:57:18,550 --> 00:57:19,647
I was lost...

1065
00:57:19,728 --> 00:57:21,148
... until I gave myself to the Lord.

1066
00:57:21,229 --> 00:57:24,939
But now, I've been redeemed by
the perfect blood of Christ.

1067
00:57:25,984 --> 00:57:28,324
First Manson and then Jesus.

1068
00:57:28,737 --> 00:57:31,197
He's just exchanged one
belief system for another.

1069
00:57:32,366 --> 00:57:34,326
See, the contradicting
stories don't concern me.

1070
00:57:34,409 --> 00:57:36,499
Neither is a completely reliable source.

1071
00:57:37,329 --> 00:57:39,499
And I'm not so sure that
Manson was a total loss.

1072
00:57:39,581 --> 00:57:41,170
He had influence

1073
00:57:41,203 --> 00:57:42,461
over his young followers

1074
00:57:42,542 --> 00:57:44,395
much in the same way that
Corll had over Henley.

1075
00:57:44,795 --> 00:57:46,755
He used sex and drugs.

1076
00:57:46,838 --> 00:57:49,128
But he also had an overt philosophy.

1077
00:57:49,216 --> 00:57:50,336
If you can call it that.

1078
00:57:50,425 --> 00:57:52,545
What is Helter Skelter, really?

1079
00:57:53,387 --> 00:57:54,387
It's borrowed.

1080
00:57:54,471 --> 00:57:55,971
But how is it useful to him?

1081
00:57:56,682 --> 00:57:59,352
What if the point of Helter
Skelter wasn't a race war?

1082
00:57:59,434 --> 00:58:01,404
What if it was about control?

1083
00:58:01,812 --> 00:58:04,402
- Over the Family?
- A cause to forge solidarity.

1084
00:58:04,481 --> 00:58:07,821
What if Tex and Sadie did come up
with the idea of a copycat crime?

1085
00:58:08,443 --> 00:58:10,533
It's proactive, risky, revolutionary.

1086
00:58:11,113 --> 00:58:13,993
It may not have been what Manson
intended, but they called his bluff.

1087
00:58:14,074 --> 00:58:16,164
They were doing what
he only talks about.

1088
00:58:16,576 --> 00:58:20,906
From Manson's perspective, his
authority would have been threatened.

1089
00:58:20,998 --> 00:58:22,328
He'd have no choice but
to go along with it.

1090
00:58:22,416 --> 00:58:23,490
At the LaBianca house,

1091
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,290
Manson went in and tied up the victims
before sending the killers in.

1092
00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:28,878
He wanted to remind them
that this was his plan.

1093
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:29,900
Not anyone else's.

1094
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,221
He was doing whatever he could to
keep authority over his Family.

1095
00:58:33,635 --> 00:58:37,095
Control, or at least the appearance
of it, was worth any cost.

1096
00:58:37,597 --> 00:58:38,767
Even seven murders.

1097
00:58:39,057 --> 00:58:40,977
When we were leaving,
he did a weird thing.

1098
00:58:42,019 --> 00:58:44,439
He asked for my sunglasses,
so I gave them to him.

1099
00:58:44,521 --> 00:58:46,441
A guard chased me down
and said Manson bragged

1100
00:58:46,523 --> 00:58:48,403
to everyone he stole them from the FBI.

1101
00:58:48,734 --> 00:58:51,114
He was willing to go to the
hole just to look powerful.

1102
00:58:51,194 --> 00:58:53,824
On the one hand, you have a
bunch of drugged-out kids.

1103
00:58:53,905 --> 00:58:58,195
On the other, a practiced,
manipulative ex-con.

1104
00:58:59,327 --> 00:59:01,787
And you're arguing that
Manson was forced into it?

1105
00:59:02,205 --> 00:59:05,165
Tex gave a pretty detailed account
of succumbing to brainwashing.

1106
00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:06,630
He didn't dismiss the idea

1107
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:08,500
that he would've killed
without meeting Manson.

1108
00:59:08,587 --> 00:59:09,797
Manson found the right people.

1109
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,670
Young, submissive, alone.

1110
00:59:11,757 --> 00:59:13,877
But primarily, people
with untapped potential.

1111
00:59:13,967 --> 00:59:16,297
People who saw themselves as outliers.

1112
00:59:16,386 --> 00:59:19,026
People who only had to have their
fear removed to do what they did.

1113
00:59:19,473 --> 00:59:21,143
He simply helped them be who they were.

1114
00:59:26,646 --> 00:59:27,646
Hi.

1115
00:59:29,733 --> 00:59:32,533
- Escort me in?
- Nancy not coming?

1116
00:59:33,070 --> 00:59:35,490
Didn't want to drag her
to another office thing.

1117
00:59:35,781 --> 00:59:36,991
- You?
- Same.

1118
00:59:38,075 --> 00:59:39,445
So, how painful do you think...

1119
00:59:39,534 --> 00:59:41,414
... this thing is gonna be?

1120
00:59:41,578 --> 00:59:44,328
From the look of the house, at
least the booze will be good.

1121
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:48,586
Welcome.

1122
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:49,880
Come on in.

1123
00:59:51,505 --> 00:59:52,875
Everyone's in the living room.

1124
00:59:52,964 --> 00:59:54,264
AD Wyman's already here.

1125
00:59:54,670 --> 00:59:55,880
I've been giving him a little warm-up.

1126
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:58,144
Saving the best parts
for you, of course.

1127
00:59:58,595 --> 01:00:01,555
Remember, all they want
is a good war story.

1128
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,310
Got a few of those.

1129
01:00:03,975 --> 01:00:06,015
Bill, go ahead in. I'll be right there.

1130
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:09,226
Thank you.

1131
01:00:09,310 --> 01:00:10,400
Shilling for the FBI

1132
01:00:10,430 --> 01:00:12,654
probably is not what you
expected to be roped into.

1133
01:00:12,734 --> 01:00:14,404
Oh, it's fine. I did plenty of it at BU.

1134
01:00:14,486 --> 01:00:15,986
Well, I appreciate it.

1135
01:00:16,071 --> 01:00:18,071
And I do want you to have a good time.

1136
01:00:18,700 --> 01:00:19,740
Speaking of which,

1137
01:00:19,770 --> 01:00:20,880
there's someone I would
love for you to meet.

1138
01:00:20,900 --> 01:00:22,280
Warren.

1139
01:00:23,870 --> 01:00:25,410
This is Dr. Wendy Carr.

1140
01:00:25,789 --> 01:00:28,919
Oh. Um... It is a pleasure, Dr. Carr.

1141
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,840
Warren is our liaison with the LEAA,

1142
01:00:30,919 --> 01:00:33,299
so basically, he manages
our purse strings.

1143
01:00:33,380 --> 01:00:36,510
The good news is, I'm already a
fan, so there's no need to sell me.

1144
01:00:36,591 --> 01:00:38,221
Whew. Well, that's a relief.

1145
01:00:38,552 --> 01:00:40,472
Let me have a drink sent
over. What will you have?

1146
01:00:40,554 --> 01:00:42,264
A glass of white wine, thank you.

1147
01:00:44,015 --> 01:00:45,885
So you actually read our reports?

1148
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:49,859
They are so much more interesting
than budget committee minutes.

1149
01:00:50,438 --> 01:00:51,478
That's a low standard.

1150
01:00:51,815 --> 01:00:54,105
Well, I really have read them, Doctor...

1151
01:00:54,901 --> 01:00:56,611
- May I call you Wendy?
- Of course.

1152
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:57,945
I've read the transcripts.

1153
01:00:58,029 --> 01:01:00,369
I've read the analyses,
and they're fascinating.

1154
01:01:00,448 --> 01:01:01,698
And truly original.

1155
01:01:01,780 --> 01:01:03,300
We were asked to keep our "originality"

1156
01:01:03,330 --> 01:01:04,793
in the basement when we started.

1157
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:06,330
It must have been quite a shock,

1158
01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:09,173
coming from the world of
scholarship and daylight

1159
01:01:09,249 --> 01:01:11,039
into a bunker full of G-men.

1160
01:01:11,126 --> 01:01:12,786
I'm doing work that I
wouldn't be able to do

1161
01:01:12,878 --> 01:01:15,548
- anywhere else.
- You are hardly what I expected

1162
01:01:15,630 --> 01:01:19,260
from the "Dr. Carr Commentary on
Ed Kemper's Mutilation Fantasies."

1163
01:01:19,342 --> 01:01:21,302
Well, I'm afraid to ask
what you expected.

1164
01:01:21,845 --> 01:01:24,715
Something not so form-fitted.

1165
01:01:26,057 --> 01:01:28,227
- A lot more tweed.
- Ah.

1166
01:01:31,271 --> 01:01:33,571
George, this is Special
Agent Bill Tench.

1167
01:01:33,940 --> 01:01:35,500
Founder of our Behavioral Science Unit.

1168
01:01:35,510 --> 01:01:36,520
Ah.

1169
01:01:36,540 --> 01:01:39,200
I was telling George I only
know the boring admin side.

1170
01:01:39,279 --> 01:01:42,319
You are the guy who sits in the
room with the serial killers.

1171
01:01:42,407 --> 01:01:43,407
That's me, sir.

1172
01:01:43,491 --> 01:01:46,491
Amazing. Ted says no cuffs on
these guys. Is that right?

1173
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,498
Makes 'em feel like we really want
to hear their side of the story.

1174
01:01:49,664 --> 01:01:51,834
Bill has been able to get
things out of Speck,

1175
01:01:51,917 --> 01:01:55,627
Berkowitz, even Manson, that they
have never said to anybody else.

1176
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:57,220
We went into Berkowitz

1177
01:01:57,250 --> 01:01:59,506
thinking we were just going
to hear that same old demon,

1178
01:01:59,591 --> 01:02:00,591
barking dog story.

1179
01:02:01,051 --> 01:02:03,721
What could we possibly learn
from a guy that crazy?

1180
01:02:03,803 --> 01:02:06,353
But we got him to admit
that the whole demon thing

1181
01:02:06,431 --> 01:02:07,641
was totally made up.

1182
01:02:08,058 --> 01:02:09,938
- He said that?
- A complete crock.

1183
01:02:10,518 --> 01:02:13,188
And he said the shrinks ate
it up faster than anybody.

1184
01:02:15,273 --> 01:02:18,613
But hiding in a basement or
hiding behind a typewriter,

1185
01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:19,993
you know, what else do you enjoy?

1186
01:02:20,070 --> 01:02:21,755
I don't consider either
of those things "hiding."

1187
01:02:22,155 --> 01:02:23,405
What I mean is,

1188
01:02:24,824 --> 01:02:26,954
you have a very compelling presence.

1189
01:02:27,369 --> 01:02:30,619
Spending all your time in
such solitary pursuits,

1190
01:02:30,705 --> 01:02:32,145
you may not even be aware of your...

1191
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:34,880
your effect on people.

1192
01:02:39,339 --> 01:02:40,339
What are we doing here?

1193
01:02:41,132 --> 01:02:43,892
- Well, every job has its politics.
- What I mean is,

1194
01:02:44,302 --> 01:02:45,892
we could be somewhere else, together.

1195
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:47,676
Oh.

1196
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:48,774
I'd like to be alone with you.

1197
01:02:48,848 --> 01:02:53,518
Ah, Warren, no, thank you.

1198
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,040
- We could be really enjoying ourselves.
- Holden!

1199
01:02:57,649 --> 01:03:00,189
This is Special Agent Holden Ford

1200
01:03:00,443 --> 01:03:02,073
who's also with Behavioral Science.

1201
01:03:02,153 --> 01:03:03,153
This is Warren...

1202
01:03:03,238 --> 01:03:05,318
Freeman. Justice liaison.

1203
01:03:05,550 --> 01:03:06,619
- Hi.
- Hi.

1204
01:03:06,630 --> 01:03:07,660
Were you looking for the bar?

1205
01:03:07,701 --> 01:03:09,871
'Cause I was thinking about
getting myself a refill,

1206
01:03:09,953 --> 01:03:12,123
but I'm just gonna stop off
at the ladies' room, first.

1207
01:03:12,205 --> 01:03:14,745
I'll get your drink, and we
can finish our conversation.

1208
01:03:17,711 --> 01:03:18,881
Oh.

1209
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:21,876
It's this way.

1210
01:03:21,965 --> 01:03:23,335
- Thank you.
- Yeah.

1211
01:03:25,552 --> 01:03:29,472
The guard said he bragged he'd
stolen sunglasses from an FBI agent.

1212
01:03:29,556 --> 01:03:32,516
They threw him in solitary.

1213
01:03:33,018 --> 01:03:35,348
Rather than say they were
a gift... There he is!

1214
01:03:35,937 --> 01:03:37,857
... he preferred to do
six weeks in the hole

1215
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:41,149
just to look like he was a badass.

1216
01:03:41,234 --> 01:03:43,364
Gentlemen, this is Special Agent Ford.

1217
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,510
He's been key in developing
many of the techniques

1218
01:03:45,540 --> 01:03:46,550
we now use in the field.

1219
01:03:46,573 --> 01:03:49,583
Bill's been regaling us. You must
have some amazing stories too.

1220
01:03:50,410 --> 01:03:52,700
I've had many of the same
experiences Bill's had.

1221
01:03:52,787 --> 01:03:54,957
I'll leave you in Agent Ford's hands.

1222
01:03:55,540 --> 01:03:57,130
Excuse me while I take a leak.

1223
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:07,426
What's important in the Manson story

1224
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:10,850
is that we're learning what
compulsions motivate behavior.

1225
01:04:11,890 --> 01:04:13,640
For him, it was the
appearance of control.

1226
01:04:13,725 --> 01:04:16,935
His crimes can be boiled
down to that singular need.

1227
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,440
By correlating psychological
fingerprints to known behaviors,

1228
01:04:20,523 --> 01:04:24,323
we're building a primer to
understanding criminal action.

1229
01:04:45,965 --> 01:04:48,385
How did you escape the
dog and pony show?

1230
01:04:50,261 --> 01:04:52,641
You know, it's cheating
to hide with the wives.

1231
01:04:53,473 --> 01:04:55,643
Uh, Warren Freeman.

1232
01:04:55,725 --> 01:04:57,635
You know him?

1233
01:04:57,727 --> 01:04:58,727
Oh, yeah.

1234
01:04:59,437 --> 01:05:01,267
He's popular in the secretary pool

1235
01:05:01,356 --> 01:05:02,976
and the wives' club.

1236
01:05:03,066 --> 01:05:04,146
How'd you get away?

1237
01:05:04,234 --> 01:05:06,404
I... I grabbed on to the
first passing body.

1238
01:05:06,861 --> 01:05:08,201
Happened to be Holden.

1239
01:05:08,279 --> 01:05:10,619
That bad, huh?

1240
01:05:10,698 --> 01:05:11,868
Oh, I should've known.

1241
01:05:13,243 --> 01:05:15,333
How go the war stories?

1242
01:05:16,830 --> 01:05:19,040
I never know exactly
what it is I'm selling.

1243
01:05:20,125 --> 01:05:21,245
It's not the work.

1244
01:05:22,085 --> 01:05:24,995
I'm really just selling somebody
else's ass up the ladder.

1245
01:05:25,922 --> 01:05:27,762
Still, it's a hell of
a lot better than...

1246
01:05:30,677 --> 01:05:31,677
Sorry.

1247
01:05:32,887 --> 01:05:34,677
I got some things going on at home.

1248
01:05:36,057 --> 01:05:37,057
You okay?

1249
01:05:41,688 --> 01:05:45,608
Brian was playing with some
older boys and a toddler.

1250
01:05:46,651 --> 01:05:47,941
Things got out of hand...

1251
01:05:49,779 --> 01:05:52,699
and the older boys ended up
suffocating the toddler.

1252
01:05:53,366 --> 01:05:54,446
Oh, my God.

1253
01:05:55,410 --> 01:05:56,660
Brian saw it all.

1254
01:05:59,789 --> 01:06:01,539
He must've remembered the Bible story

1255
01:06:01,620 --> 01:06:03,560
because he convinced the other boys

1256
01:06:03,590 --> 01:06:07,100
to take the body and tie it to a cross.

1257
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:10,219
He's exempt from charges, thankfully.

1258
01:06:10,967 --> 01:06:12,427
But he...

1259
01:06:13,386 --> 01:06:16,676
We have to go through
court-mandated protocols.

1260
01:06:16,764 --> 01:06:18,394
Is Brian talking to someone?

1261
01:06:18,475 --> 01:06:21,135
We've got a psychiatrist,
a social worker,

1262
01:06:21,686 --> 01:06:23,226
benchmarks we have to meet.

1263
01:06:24,100 --> 01:06:25,300
How is Nancy?

1264
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,820
She's not grasping that Brian
might need some kind of help.

1265
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,060
On the other hand,

1266
01:06:30,090 --> 01:06:32,028
she won't leave him
alone for five minutes.

1267
01:06:32,113 --> 01:06:34,123
That's really why she's
not here tonight.

1268
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:36,279
We haven't left the house
since it happened.

1269
01:06:36,784 --> 01:06:39,544
I mean, just give it time.
I mean, this is huge.

1270
01:06:40,997 --> 01:06:43,417
And really, Bill,
anything that I can do.

1271
01:06:44,375 --> 01:06:46,125
I'm gonna ask for your discretion.

1272
01:06:49,130 --> 01:06:50,260
Holden doesn't know.

1273
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:54,760
I understand.

1274
01:06:59,265 --> 01:07:00,925
They look critically bored.

1275
01:07:01,309 --> 01:07:02,599
We should get back in there.

1276
01:07:03,811 --> 01:07:05,151
Perform life support.

1277
01:07:11,611 --> 01:07:13,611
You know, Bill, I think that
I just might sneak out.

1278
01:07:13,696 --> 01:07:14,736
I don't blame you.

1279
01:07:17,951 --> 01:07:18,951
Wendy.

1280
01:07:19,953 --> 01:07:21,833
I hope I didn't frighten you off.

1281
01:07:21,913 --> 01:07:24,673
I'd love for us to finish our
talk, maybe somewhere quieter.

1282
01:07:24,749 --> 01:07:26,919
Oh, thank you, but I'm actually
not feeling very well.

1283
01:07:27,001 --> 01:07:29,001
Oh, I'd love to drive you home.

1284
01:07:29,629 --> 01:07:31,629
- I insist.
- I'm perfectly fine to drive.

1285
01:07:31,714 --> 01:07:33,844
Well, at least let me see you out.

1286
01:07:33,925 --> 01:07:36,835
No, Warren, I'm going to
see myself out. I insist.

1287
01:07:39,305 --> 01:07:41,925
♪ When we're out together ♪

1288
01:07:42,016 --> 01:07:45,056
♪ Dancin' cheek to cheek ♪

1289
01:07:45,144 --> 01:07:48,064
Wyman's invited you to speak at
the annual directors' retreat.

1290
01:07:48,439 --> 01:07:49,609
I accepted for you.

1291
01:07:51,818 --> 01:07:54,818
A spectacular country club: skeet, golf.

1292
01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:55,904
No wives.

1293
01:07:57,073 --> 01:07:58,993
And it's face time with the director.

1294
01:07:59,158 --> 01:08:00,878
That's what we were
hoping for tonight, sir?

1295
01:08:04,330 --> 01:08:06,210
Miss. Let's get this man a drink.

1296
01:08:06,291 --> 01:08:07,291
He's earned it.

1297
01:08:13,172 --> 01:08:15,172
Think you can get Holden
to loosen up a little?

1298
01:08:15,258 --> 01:08:17,718
... events in a suspect's life.

1299
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:18,850
We've found a high incidence

1300
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:20,472
of broken homes and
neglected families...

1301
01:08:20,555 --> 01:08:22,595
Did my partner tell you
about Richard Speck?

1302
01:08:22,682 --> 01:08:23,682
No.

1303
01:08:23,766 --> 01:08:24,976
So Speck comes in,

1304
01:08:25,351 --> 01:08:29,111
and we see he's got
something in his hands.

1305
01:08:52,378 --> 01:08:53,838
- Hello?
- Hey, Holden.

1306
01:08:53,921 --> 01:08:54,961
News from Atlanta.

1307
01:08:55,214 --> 01:08:56,634
Jim. Tell me.

1308
01:08:56,716 --> 01:08:58,636
Another body, another strangulation.

1309
01:08:59,135 --> 01:09:00,135
How old?

1310
01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:01,240
Twelve.

1311
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:02,466
Clifford Jones.

1312
01:09:02,847 --> 01:09:05,557
He was collecting cans for change
so his aunt could do laundry.

1313
01:09:05,642 --> 01:09:06,642
Broad daylight.

1314
01:09:07,226 --> 01:09:09,016
He's number 13.

1315
01:09:16,861 --> 01:09:21,861
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